Thomas Hübl: Welcome back to the Collective Healing Conference. My name is Thomas Hübl. I’m the convener of the conference and I’m delighted to be sitting here with Dr. Mariel Buqué. Mariel warm welcome. I’m happy to have you here with us.
Mariel Buqué: Thank you. It’s such a pleasure to be with all of you. Thank you so much for having me.
Thomas: So I think your work touches on something that I’m very passionate about and I’m also always passionate about learning more and seeing different viewpoints, access points, how we work with generational trauma and the transmission of trauma from one generation to the next. The cycles, your book Breaking the Cycle is talking about cycles. So I’m curious to learn a lot from you, but before we start about the specifics, maybe you can tell me a bit, was there anything on your life path that clicked for you to go into the direction trauma work, generational trauma work? What’s the motivation? I mean, what sources your passion? And I’m always curious, did something happen in your life? Was that very clear for a long time? How did you come to be passionate about that?
Mariel: Yeah, I mean, it’s a wonderful question to kick us off and a lot of us in the field definitely have some sort of story within our lives that intersperses with the work, and that definitely was the case for me, although I didn’t really add the language of trauma until later on in my training when I was able to access that language. But I did come from a very impoverished background in Dominican Republic. I lived there for a couple of years and we lived in deep poverty and the same within the U.S. and so there were a lot of elements of trauma that were interspersed with the experience of economic deficit that I definitely had as a prominent experience in my life. But when I actually embarked upon my very first career, which was in advertising, I decided that I wanted to do something that felt more nourishing outside of work hours, which was volunteer back in my hometown of Newark, New Jersey. And there I actually started seeing that I could help in this way. And so I embarked upon my second career now of being a psychologist and going back into my own communities and helping in ways that can produce lasting effects. So that’s kind of how I found my way into this work. It was really through volunteer work, through just understanding that there were a lot of connections between myself and the people that I was starting to serve and really wanting to serve in this way for the long term.
Thomas: Oh, it’s beautiful. It’s also a beautiful way to describe how important sometimes serving our society and volunteering is. It’s really beautiful to hear that. And so what changed your path to adapt more and more trauma and intergenerational generational trauma? What’s the attraction there? How did you recognize that? Why is that important?
Mariel: Well, I started seeing it in every single corner of my work I used to work at and also train in a big hospital system in New York City, and we had a very diverse population that we serve there and predominantly individuals that were Spanish speaking at a specific area of the hospital. Within that time, I would actually be not just assigned my clients and start working with them and start doing clinical evaluations, but I would also hear some of the stories that we would share as clinicians in our clinical team meetings. And every single time there were these stories that had these layers of trauma and people would say this person had endured domestic violence within their last relationship. They also noted that in their family there have been multiple incidents and multiple people that have suffered the same fate, including a parent, a grandparent. And so with all of that, especially being so prevalent and such a big marker in a person’s history, I started wondering why are we not calling out the elephant in the room? There’s clearly something here that we are all in essence working with as clinicians. We are in the room with all of those layers of trauma with this human that’s in front of us, but we’re not necessarily calling out what exactly it is. And that’s just step one. Step two is to really address it and find sustainable healing through that experience for this person. But I set it out to be my mission to figure out how do we then work with the layers of trauma that are present and really help a person find true peace.
Thomas: That’s beautiful. First of all, I wholeheartedly agree. I think that expanding the map is so important, but what about the voice that says, listen, all these things that happened in the past generations are history. Let’s look at our life and let’s move on. Some people have this voice that say, okay, let’s leave all of this behind us. That’s what our ancestors dealt with, and let’s find resilience in our life and let’s look towards the future. It’s a voice that we hear over and over again. So maybe how would you address this voice or that is a voice that comes up in certain times or circles or whatever parts of society. How do you respond to this? Why is leaving that behind not a possibility or what, maybe you can respond to that voice for a moment.
Mariel: Yeah, I think that that voice in part is a voice that honors a more individualistic perspective on who we are as people and also how we heal when we’re talking about healing from the perspective of a more communal but also interdependent and interconnected perspective. We’re talking about healing that brings in the different elements of how the wounding took place, but also brings in the different elements of how healing can take place. And that means that the layers have to be there. I find that when we apply the layers both on the introspection and excavating and evaluation work where we’re trying to gather all the pieces and when we’re actually in the work doing the actual healing and repair, that it tends to provide a more profound experience that offers more sustainable healing versus us just focusing on the one person in the one lifetime, in the one experience that happened to them and not really factoring in how much more there is to the story.
Thomas: It’s interesting when I listen to you, when you speak about these two different options, I can really feel in my body the difference of opening the space that we are part of a bigger context creates in my experience, much more space. So that’s very interesting. When I listen to you, I feel suddenly more space opening. When you talk more about this individualistic worldview, it closes the space a bit, and I think that’s a lovely, like how my body resonates with your words, just want to make this a bit more explicit and I will come back to that later. You used one word interdependent. Can you, for all of us listening, can you maybe speak to that for some people that might not be so familiar with what interdependence means? What do you describe when you say interdependent?
Mariel: Yes. Interdependence is really the ways in which we in a healthy way rely upon each other for our collective existence. We rely upon each other for relational connection, for sometimes logistical assistance, and that is why we are a collective of humanity. We work together, we engage in activities together, and all of that is synergy. All of that is how we go about life being human. We’re not meant to be in isolation and we’re also not meant to be, or at the very least, it doesn’t serve us entirely well to be entirely too dependent upon each other. And interdependence and the language is definitely one that derives from a very communal aspect of how we work well together in communities and villages. It offers us an opportunity to see how we can be in harmony with one another and work with one another and depend upon one another while also having our own level of independence. So that’s I think a global way of looking at interdependence and from the perspective of work that is healing centered, that interdependence really translates into how do we engage in an understanding of how healing can take place and relationships can be a part of that healing versus extracting ourselves, distancing ourselves, creating and erecting walls and barriers that don’t create the connection that we need in order for healing to find its depth.
Thomas: Beautiful. When you speak about the process of generational trauma, so one could say, but how does that happen? How does trauma from my grandparents that experienced the second World War affect me? How can I see the or understand, however feel the impact that my grandmother’s or grandfather’s trauma have on me? So how does this work? How does the trauma come through the generations to me? So if that’s not clear to me or to us as listeners now, how can we… are there ways that trauma transmission can be described? How does this work? The trauma transmits itself through generations.
Mariel: Yeah. The ways in which we’re currently conceptualizing intergenerational trauma, and this is especially so because it’s one of the newer facets of not just our mental health, but also trauma that we’re understanding with greater depth, is that intergenerational trauma is the one type of trauma that is handed down our family line and is found at the intersection of our biology and our psychology, and it’s very nature nurture in that way. So within our biology, we have greater understandings of the ways in which, from an epigenetic perspective, there are ways in which we have at the very least some sort of genetic messaging that is passed down from generation to generation and can at the very least create some sort of an emotional vulnerability or predisposition to stress that is sometimes overwhelming or that can feel like trauma or develop into trauma-based symptoms. But how does that happen?
Well, we have everything else, which is a part of the psychology or psychosocial experience that a person would go through throughout their lives. So once they are birthed, they may be birthed to a parent that’s still in that traumatized state. They are very vulnerable to the experience of misattunement, and it’s very likely that their nervous system might program to not having consistent and sustainable and nurturing experiences in those early, very critical periods of life. And then fast forward to everything else that can happen in life. Sometimes children get bullied, sometimes parental disputes happen in the home that can uproot a child’s nervous system and make them feel really uneasy and program their nervous system in a way where it defaults to a threat response. Sometimes there can be things that happen within a relationship that a person might have where the relationship is tumultuous and harmful, and that can also tap into that vulnerability and other things like a global pandemic can happen that can place a person in survival mode for an extended period of time, wondering if their lives are going to be spared. And so all of that is a part of the psychology that can then connect to that biological vulnerability and make it so that trauma could now be intergenerational. A parent had those traumatic elements, their genetic encoding, factoring in that trauma, them passing on that experience through genetic messaging and emotional vulnerabilities to their children, and then their children with their own experiences who then had trauma symptoms surface.
Thomas: Yeah, that’s beautiful. Thank you. That’s a very beautiful description. It resonates very much with me, and we just in fact finished a two year epigenetic study on the reverse of that. So if people go through intense individual ancestral collective trauma healing, how does that affect the epigenetic expression? And so that’s beautifully described, and I love how you described the interplay between the epigenetic messaging that you said, so something biological nature, and then the social architecture impact of the social architecture dynamic around a person. And that might, I think you also described beautifully why, for example, something like a pandemic or any kind of later life circumstances can activate something also like a health issue or whatever in us that expresses itself then when in fact before it wasn’t there, it was dormant, and now it starts to express itself more actively through that kind of social environment dimension.
So that’s beautiful and now what to do about it? What works? How do we take care of something that’s so intangible on one way it’s not very, okay, this it’s my, I don’t know, my father beat me if I don’t have any biographical knowledge that I remember when my father was angry and beat me, that it was really terrifying for me, or I can connect my memory to that. How can I connect my memory to what my grandfather experienced in the second World War, for example? So maybe you can speak a little bit. So how can we work with that dimension that sometimes feels like, how do I get there?
Mariel: Oh yes. Wow, this question’s powerful. And the reason why I took on a holistic approach, not just because I was trained in it and I was very fortunate to train for an extensive period of time and really see the changes happening, but when we are in traumatized states, we do have moments in which we, for the sake of survival, have a very biological or biologically driven disconnection from the experience or from ourselves. And as a result, a lot of the work, especially at the beginning when we’re working with the healing protocol, is to actually reconnect, reconnect to self, reconnect to our bodies, have a very profound level of body attunement and body care so that we can actually tap into the resources that are there that are also data or hold data and hold information about what has transpired. If we’re talking about the fact that generational trauma has a biological element, it’s really going to be hard for us to see the biological element by just looking at ourselves.
And that’s the thing about emotional experiences, that they can be very invisible and people can walk around earth with these wounds and we really don’t see them, but we do have the mechanism of tapping into our bodies and our body’s wisdom with the understanding that our body would capture some of that information that we can then work with. So for anybody who has that removal of two generations, three generations past and don’t have the biographical data or psychosocial data to understand what truly happened here, what we do have is the data that’s held inside of our emotions and inside of our bodies, and we can work with that in order to produce the healing at a multilevel, like a holistic approach.
Thomas: So if I were your client, and I am really willing because somehow it resonates with me, I feel there’s something to what you’re saying, but it’s hard for me, what kind of emotions would I be looking for or what kind of sensations, body sensations, symptoms in my life would I be looking for that can give me some kind of access to that information in my body? Maybe can you share with us either an example or what can I look for that gives me an indication? Oh, maybe here I might be touching on some generational trauma.
Mariel: Wow. There are variable ways in which people experience trauma within their bodies, however, I’d like to just highlight one person that I got a chance to work with that left me with this impression that always kind of stuck with me. And she mentioned to me, every cell in my body feels my sorrow. And when she said that, I felt like there truly is a way in which our bodies globally are capturing the pain that is within the emotional pain. However, when we’re talking about specific emotions, those emotions, and now we’re talking having a wide understanding of how emotions are captured in specific places in our bodies or specific organs. We do know that a lot of grief is captured in the chest area, sometimes in the lungs/heart area. And so we tend to see that the experience within the grief cycle that is a part of generational trauma tends to be captured more globally within that upper region of our body.
However, another area that is very prominent in terms of especially when we’re talking about shame, is the gut. There is a level of constriction and almost kind of inability to adequately function and process the functions that are supposed to be there within the gut that is so prominent in trauma sufferers that are capturing a lot of deep seeded shame. And so when we think about it from the biological perspective and the nervous system and how it’s almost cemented in a survival mode and cemented in this experience of dissociation, all of that starts to make a lot of sense from a biological perspective when it comes to ‘why in the gut’. Because when we are in survival mode, we don’t need the rest and digest function that is a part of our nervous system cycle. We are constricting that unconsciously and automatically within the body in order to just focus on survival. So it does make a lot of sense for people to have that element of discomfort within their gut when they’re holding on to that trauma.
Thomas: Yeah, that’s beautiful. I see this all the time, what you just said, and I think you’re also saying the reverse of it means if we want to heal trauma, we need to find ways how to down-regulate the space or the stress and open up the space a bit more so that we can reflect again, the same function that we don’t need in the survival mode is also where some people are sometimes kind of caught up in, and then it’s hard for them to reflect because their nervous system actually kind of inhibited that function. So being aware and finding ways how to open that more access the body to the emotions can happen again. Yeah, so that’s beautiful. Thank you for that description. This was beautiful with the gut. I think that many people can resonate with that description. And so your book’s called Breaking the Cycle. Tell me something about the cycle. What cycle are we breaking? What’s the cycle?
Mariel: Goodness, there can be so many, but some of us can be captured in cycles of abuse. That is a very prominent cycle that a lot of cycle breakers say, I don’t want to continue this. I know what it feels like. I know what it feels like to be on the receiving end. I also sometimes can even empathize with whatever parent could have caused some level of harm because they too had to be the recipient of that kind of abuse. And the cycle that I can break is to not perpetuate that forward as hard as it might be, as much as I would have to work on regulating myself, my emotions, focusing on how I can properly attune to myself and identify the needs that I have in the moments when I’m more emotionally elevated, those are going to be moments where I’m going to need even more of those skills in order to actually not perpetuate that cycle forward.
So cycles of abuse tends to be pretty prominent, but also there can be other experiences that we may not categorize under abuse, but we do categorize under things that people remember and pretty deeply perhaps not being apologized to as a kid. There are a lot of cycle breaking parents that are always trying to figure out what were the things that either caused me discomfort or that I would’ve wished I would’ve loved for my parent to do and show up in this way within my life. And that can be something, it can be also the not engaging in a cycle of codependence. And that’s where that interdependence comes into play that we talked about and really focusing on how can you gather the skills to adopt an independent relational approach to the relationships in your life? And that is on a global scale, that means that it’s the relationship you have to an intimate partner. It’s the relationship you have to your children. It’s the relationship you may have to your parents, the relationship that you have to colleagues at work. It’s literally every single relationship that you are a part of will benefit from that breaking of the codependent cycle and transitioning into an interdependent approach to relationships.
Thomas: Yeah. So many questions. Just the last thing you said, breaking the codependent cycle. So let’s say I noticed that I have a codependent relationship. How do I break that cycle? What’s my internal process or what can I do? How can I break my codependence? Are there ways that you see that people can practice for themselves or notice in themselves that are the internal experience to the outer codependent symptom? So what am I looking for if I want to break that cycle?
Mariel: Yeah, it’s a critical question and we have to look within what the mechanism of codependence is, which is to allow the person that is, we will say that there’s one person that’s codependent in a relationship and they’re really kind of like it takes two, but we’ll say that that person is the one that’s coming in with that history and then bringing the other person into that cycle with them. Let’s say that the person that is codependent is having that function of codependence show up in the relationship prominently. What is that function? It’s to create a dynamic where the other person soothes their emotions for them because they haven’t learned how to properly soothe their own. And so when we look at the mechanism of codependence, it is that, right? It’s to lean on others and almost kind of pull others into a dynamic where they are now soothing your emotions because you haven’t adopted the skill that is necessary to actually help yourself in the moments when you feel emotionally tender.
So when we’re talking about breaking the cycle, we’re talking about creating almost like a 360 skillset around how to self-soothe what you need in the moments that feel most tender, how to actually show up for yourself in those moments, how to adopt a way in which you can be more attuned to your own body when it’s almost kind of driving you into almost in an immediate reaction or response to gather that support from the other person. So all of that is a part of the journey of what we start breaking down from that codependent behavior in order to then adopt newer relational qualities that the person can practice and build mastery around so that now they have an alternative. They don’t have just one option and one default way of relating to others. They have agency, they have openness, they have skills, they have greater ability, and they have choice.
Thomas: Beautiful. It’s lovely to listen to you when I listen to you. First of all, your voice is soothing my body, and it’s also, there’s such an elegance in the way you describe it. It’s a beautiful and very, it’s very lovely for me to follow your descriptions. They’re very vivid and they make a lot of sense. So thank you for that. It’s beautiful.
Mariel: Thank you.
Thomas: And so I have so many questions because I’m very passionate about this. One is how do you see, you mentioned some of the cycles. Other cycles might be, for example, suicidality or health issues. So how do you see also, given the experience that you have, are there ways, if you see repetitive cycles of health issues showing up in a family line, are there ways through generational healing work to reduce or heal some of those? And if so, do you have some experience where that really dissolved or is it going to stay, but we just have more capacity to hold those health issues when we do the generational work? How beneficial is that? And can we stop cycles like suicidality for example, because that’s what we see also often some generation and show up again. And maybe you can speak to this too a little bit.
Mariel: Yeah, yeah. I’ll touch on suicidality first because there are multiple reasons why a person might not want to live, and some of those reasons might be situational and psychosocial and sometimes unchangeable. But from my perspective, some of what I’ve seen in the options that people take to not want to live is that they are also lacking an option, a different option, and a set of skills. I know that there are some of my colleagues who are perhaps more do more manualized treatments have adopted ways in which they integrate skills into the work with individuals that are chronically suicidal, and that actually helps that person to feel like they have the choice to regulate in a way that can help them feel like life is worth living. And so from the perspective of how we break cycles when it comes to that suicidal behavior or suicidal ideology, it is going to be really critical for us to connect with the person at a level which we try to adopt a perspective on how they can help themselves versus how they typically are experiencing life, which is as this overburdening consumable inescapable burden and where they feel like the only escape is the escape through the method of suicide.
So I’m always very curious, like my mind’s very curious and I think it’s part of why probably I went into psychology to really excavate the mind and get into that curious mindset with the people that I serve, because it allows me an opportunity to start asking questions about what are the methods or what are the things that are happening in the background of the things that we call out in society? Like what is in the background of depression, what is in the background of anxiety, what’s in the background of suicidality, what’s even in the background sometimes of an experience or the chronic ailment of psychosis? And so all of that is something that I start getting curious about so that we can start getting into what the root is from the perspective of health issues. Health issues are incredibly important to consider when it comes to generational trauma because what we know about the body and its wear and tear meter and the ways in which it can become so overburdened that it actually starts breaking down and loses its capacity to actually fight off disease is that from generation to generation, we have ways in which the body absorbs, even from an epigenetic perspective, it absorbs certain ways in which it actually operates that can actually lead to disease over and over again.
So how do we use that from a healing modality? What we also know, just as you mentioned, is that there are ways to create reversals by utilizing our body and utilizing mechanisms of healing that really tap into the physical that can, if a person is already undergoing or experiencing a chronic illness that can at least help with diminishing disease progression or at the very least, help them to experience their bodies in a way that feels tolerable versus being overconsumed by pain or by discomfort and with, it’s going to be really critical for us to also consider the folks that may be at risk of developing a chronic illness but aren’t quite there yet. And whenever I’m talking to folks and we’re trying to excavate a history within their lives and within their families that has physical ailments within it, I oftentimes want to explore when they say, everybody in my family has hypertension, diabetes runs in my family, I start to wonder, and I start to sometimes even do some collaborative education with folks about the fact that, well, if we look at the nervous system and when it’s stuck in a chronic state of alarm, it actually makes it very hard for your nervous system to metabolize energy, glucose, right?
Any meals that you have, it disrupts that cycle, the natural way in which that cycle is to take place in your body. And over time, those epigenetic markers are going to start registering like, this is the way that we recycle energy within this body. And so what can we learn from that? Typically what I at the very least pose as a question for folks is knowing that information and understanding the levels of despair, of grief, of terror or and even deficit that have occurred within your family line, could we just to get curious, perhaps pose the question, is it diabetes that runs in your family or is it intergenerational trauma? And are we looking at the physical manifestations of generational trauma manifesting as a disease where glucose is not able to metabolize in the ways that it would within a family where such trauma has not had that level of prevalence?
Thomas: Beautiful. So I also hear you say that we just open up a bit of context that not just in my body something’s happening, but there is a bigger context and we bring awareness to the bigger context. Again, what I said before with my space opens up when you say that, that we have more space to see our experience in line with more experiences, and that awareness in itself is already a different inquiry that many people do because usually it’s very individualistic and it’s very much in the individual. And for me, this feels very good that we open the context. How important in doing that do you think – I mean, one, as I hear you, as I listen to you and as I hear you, I hear one aspect of the generational work is also to introduce something that might be fairly new for some people that we think in bigger contexts and that we learn to sense bigger, like a bigger context that we are part of and that we see how our body participates in that.
How important besides, let’s say if somebody comes to you that the one is the psychoeducation that people get from you and you reflecting back some new possibilities like, oh wow, I never thought about looking at it that way. So that’s definitely one aspect of the healing work, I suppose. But how important do you feel a healing relationship is when it comes to generational healing work that we, what’s the correlation between what I can do on my own and when do I need some support and what’s the quality of the support we need? Is generational healing work something that we do on our own once we read all the facts? Or what’s the importance of relationships like healing relationships, going to a therapist, having an environment that helps me with that work?
Mariel: Yeah, it’s actually really critical. Even when I wrote my book, I explained to folks that it can be incredibly beneficial to conjoin with other individuals who share the mission to actually break cycles. And that can be a family member or it can be a friend, or it can be a colleague. It can be someone out in the world that can hold you responsible for ensuring that you’re doing the work so much so as you holding them responsible for holding true to the work as well. And that’s a part of that interdependence where I’m here for you, and we can talk about some of the history that we find in your family tree, and I’m also here for you if there’s any type of debriefing that you may need to do about something that felt particularly either uncomfortable or perplexing. However many times, and this is the thing about trauma healing period, like generational trauma healing as just kind of a category within trauma, it is really essential to be able to have a pillar, a place of collaboration where there is a level of skillset that someone might have to help you soar through and navigate through all the different layers and the details that are present.
So I actually encourage folks to engage in the protocol of generational healing while also undergoing work with a trained professional while also connecting with somebody who can hold them accountable and can be a part of community for them, particularly so because healing can feel very lonely, and especially so for anybody who’s trying to break cycles from which they have relational connections to people that can be severed. So what happens to the mind and the body and the spirit when it’s in a state of loneliness, it can experience really deep grief and despair. So in order to help manage that, it can be very helpful to bring in reinforcements and the people that are going to be helpful in navigating that process. And we can’t lose sight of the fact that healing is a relational process. We can’t heal in disconnection to others. We must heal in connection to others because most times the traumas that we suffer were traumas that happened in relationship. And so it’s going to be really critical that we find the structure that is best fitting and hopefully follow it through.
Thomas: That’s beautiful. So again, what I hear is there are practices or a protocol that I can follow through myself. There’s something I can do with a professional, and there’s something that an ecosystem or a community or a group of people supporting each other. So the we space also has an important role, and I think if we make sure that we have this I/you I/we, in kind of a good correlation, then that’s maybe the most supportive for the healing. So that’s beautiful. One thing I’m curious about, of course, is always because your inspiration is your fuel. So where is your leading edge at the moment or what are you passionate about? Where are you expanding right now with your work and yeah, what drives, where is your coolest thing ever? We expand our own horizon. Yes, yes.
Mariel: I am developing a practice that is centering a lot of these holistic mechanisms of healing that I’m really proud of, and it’s going to serve in the ways that I have seen have been effective and helpful in creating sustainable healing results. And so that is the area that I’m most deeply focused on and that I’m super incredibly proud of beyond the work that I’ve done. I think all of it instills pride in me, but this is where I get back into serving. And serving for me is something that is a lifelong approach and craft and goal. I’m a person of servitude. I come from people that hold that same value. So that really, it’s almost like, yes, it’s a practice that I am creating, but it is also very filling to me as a clinician to be able to hold a space where people can feel held.
Thomas: That’s beautiful. The service aspect speaks to me also deeply, and it’s very touching that we have that in our society that sometimes might be so driven by what can I get and also what can I give? And the generosity of giving I think is also dispelling some of the trauma scarcity, like the scarcity that trauma creates in our society. So I think we need that. And so that’s beautiful that you’re doing that. And is there anything I didn’t ask that you think you should definitely leave us with before we conclude here?
Mariel: Well, I think your questions have been incredible, and I’m grateful for you and for them. And I would just hope for people to really hold on to the understanding that the pain that one has suffered or that has been prominent in our families or our communities, that pain can find its way out of our hearts. I think that many times people look at especially generational trauma and they feel like, wow, this is so big. How do I tackle this? How do I work with it? Will I ever find peace? And I just want us to hold on to the understanding that with the skills, with intention and with the level of support that is needed in this journey, that peace can be found. And it’s the type of peace that is just human peace. We will all have experiences in life that may rattle us a bit, but to have that sustained experience of feeling steady is something that can be achieved even if trauma and generational trauma has been a part of your history.
Thomas: Yeah, that’s important and very important to hear again and again. I think that’s an important message. So Mariel, thank you so much. It is so lovely to listen to you. I am very passionate about what you’re doing and intergenerational generational work is so important. So thank you very much and all the best and blessings for your work.
Mariel: Thank you. And same to you. Thank you very much.
